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Believer babies?

So a believer is just a magical construct, when they die all that's left is a book. So what happens if a Believer has a child? Is the child half believer? What if a pregnant believer was killed? What would happen to the baby? So many questions...


  • I’m not sure, I assume the answer would have to be one of these 2 explanations

    1. The believers child would be connected to the original believer, and once the child’s believer parent dies the the child dies with it. But the book would probably have to be very specific about it.

    2. It just simply wouldn’t ever work, no.
  • I think the real question is if its even possible for a believer to have a child
  • Yeah, my guess would be that Believers are simply infertile.
  • I think the easiest explanation for this is that believers are infertile and if their story requires them of having a child, then they just go ahead and kidnap a baby and raise them as their own.

    like a cuckoo switcheroo
  • The believers will do everything in their power to manifest their book's contents. So if the book says they were a baby grow old and has children. They will likely do these things. Because the books may plausibly even grant the power of creation magic. With that on the table. Making babies is easily a forgone conclusion.
  • I'd say Believer's conceiving is like a Believer's ability to read. They can do it if their book says they can.

    Any kids produced are probably real after birth, but before that point the unborn child is just part of they story. If you want to argue about how unreal Believer cells suddenly become real baby cells without Creation magic then the baby can slowly become real as it grows through regular cellular reproduction.

    It is worth noting that this would also be another way to identify a Believer, so may be problematic.
  • From what we've seen, it's possible that while "active", i.e. when inhabiting a book and making a projection of a person, the Believer is indistinguishable from a real person, only really determined by it's inability to accept that it COULD be a believer, and it's inability to read.

    That said, it's possible that while in this state it's completely organic and able to reproduce same as anyone else. Since the child would be related to the organic portion of the body, the believer's death shouldn't have any more impact on them then a normal child's parents dying.

    Or most likely they are infertile. one of the two.
  • Maybe Believers can conceive children by some sort of weird cloning? Like, they probably don't have DNA, so what would happen is that if they are a Sexual Creature, what happens is all the DNA for the baby comes from the real parent?

    ... Can a Believer Porc still make Porcs? :p
  • They probably can if they have a child in their story.
  • I feel like believers bodies are really good physical illusions. So while they don't actually exist they effectively can eat, digest, inhale, exhale, bleed, heal, etc, as if their body is such a good illusions that it is as if they are effectively real. I would expect them to be able to reproduce like a normal creature.

    But we won't have an answer that question without conducting a few experiments. Hehe ;) .
  • If I learned anything from doodle date, this is a crime against nature
  • I see Believers as Homunculi-type creatures, where although they're not truly alive they still are "living" to the same extent as a common mortal race would be, and if their book says they can breed then they'd be able to.
  •     Here's the thing: When a Believer dies, everything they had when they came into existence disappears. In Okagnoma Guild Hall, Roamin tried to use Justin's Wind Tour Scroll, but couldn't because it didn't exist after the Believer died. In the case of having children, Believers should be unable to because they themselves aren't real. Imagine them getting someone pregnant, then they die. The sperm/egg for the pregnancy would then no longer exist, thus meaning the child could no longer exist. Believers shouldn't have babies because it is too confusing.

        Also, remember, Rob did state that a book cannot become a Believer if information in the book contradicts what a believer is (i.e. ability to read, questioning one's existence). Also, just because you state something in a book, it doesn't mean it has to happen. Again, in Okagnoma Guild Hall, Justin's character stole the wand from someone else. The person Justin stole from doesn't have to exist, so saying a Believer must have a child with them isn't true or required.

  • edited September 2018
    @TheWizard ; yeah i  have to agree with you on this one. would be to overly complicated to try to see it the other way. you probably could come up with some form of farfetch explanation, but would just get confusing intend of adding anything to the story
  • @TheWizard

    But if the baby is inside someone else, then the Believer doesn't "Have" it on them! Someone else has the baby! :P
  • Maybe believers when they impregnate some one it doesn't matter who or what they are it just creates a new believer?
  • believers are like ghosts that just possess books right? so yeah maybe when a believer reproduces a ghostie comes out and goes to find a book.
  • @Shane That is not a terrifying thought at all. Being the mother to a ghost? Can't see any horror out of that happening.
  • @TheWizard ; lol, i'd imagine it might not be noticeable and the baby is stillborn but that's still a bit traumatizing 
  • @Shane What if there's no actually pregnancy, but instead a little ghost is hidden inside 'til it's "born" (since we don't know how long pregnancy takes in URealms for any race really) and then flies out after the proper amount of time?
  • Lets get to a bigger question: Do Believer never age? Since they are immune to time magic, then are they unaffected by time itself? If Believers can't age, then a "baby Believer" would never grow up, thus conflicting with the concept of Believers having babies.
  • @TheWizard they'd age according to their story i guess?
  • @TheWizard i think the believer ITSELF, as in the spirit that inhabits books won't age. But the BODY that it's currently inhabiting will.

  • Here's the thing: Divines are immune to time magic. Look at Quintara Lotus for example, as she is a dragon. As far as we have seen in the show, dragons do not age (i.e. no canon event has shown a divine "grow up.") Given this concept, then a Believer should not age as well.
  • @TheWizard I find that a bit of a stretch to make that connection, we've seen young dragons so they must've aged at some point and even the aspects were once "born" (in quotations since we know they're the children of the first two Sun Dragons yet we don't know if they were poofed into existence or actually born). Also, Believers and Dragons are vastly different entities so even using one to say something about the other (at this point) is definitely a stretch. 
  • edited September 2018
    @TheWizard and about dragons not aging, we have seen baby dragons, and dragons eggs. The way whelplings work is they grow up until a certain point, then a dragon has to mature them giving the whelpling access to creation. We don’t know if the dragon aspects work this same way, but once you have access to creation magic you can be whatever age you want. So Quintara lotus doesn’t age, but that doesn’t mean she can’t. Also we’ve seen dragons use magic to control aging through golestant’s dragon scales
  • But remember, Whelplings are NOT divine. Time magic managed to freeze them. Therefore, we never saw a divine "grow up" due to this technicality.
  • edited September 2018
    @TheWizard my point still stands regardless, but Whelplings aren’t divine until they are matured, once they are matured they are divine. Just because we never seen a divine grow up doesn’t mean it can’t. The point of creation magic is it alows you to do just about whatever you want. They could have growing up be a slow process or instantly.
  • @TheWizard Sure, we've not seen proof of a Divine actually ageing but we've seen proof of things that become Divine ageing. But, like I mentioned, there's way too many differences between Believers and Divines to even try link them on whether or not one or the other actually ages.
  • Rob ultimately makes the calls. Until he makes it canon, this is all just speculation and theorizing. I feel like I'm trying to be MatPat right now :drunk:
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