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Berserker Damage

So I was playing a Berserker in a campaign and I used cleave which says the damage counts as a basic attack and I have always played it as this damage can be doubled if you have double damage buff but the GM disagreed, just wondering what other GMs think about this so I can play it correctly.  :)

Comments

  • it absolutely should be doubled imo
  • Now should the Cleave still let my weapons do special stuff like the Vorpal Slayer causing deathrolls on crits or would that be for abilities like Avalanche and DoubleFrost?

  • If you think Cleave should be allowed to have doubled damage because Basic Attacks, let me counter by asking if you think trample should also be allowed to have double damage because it also counts as a Basic Attack. What if the roles were reversed, and the GM added enemies that used this combo against you?

    Allowing Cleave to double and thus deal a motherfucking 60 Damage in a circle around you is not only horrendously overpowered for a 100 gold Regular Ability, it also renders several other Berserker cards obsolete, because why would you want to buy a War Axe, two other weapons, a way to deal doubled damage, and one of the double-attack abilities to hit a single target for 40 when you could just only buy Cleave, Double Damage, and a Magnopulser?

    Anything that says it counts as a Basic Attack won't be affected by Double or Triple Damage, but it can absolutely have effects from cards that affect basic attacks in other ways, like Justin's Siffiran Silver Hammer from the GPO campaign, the Dulled Vorpal Slayer, and many more. Maybe you want to try a Blood Drinker or even a Warp Blade instead? Buy one and give it a try!
    Oh, and don't forget about Flexible Limbs either. That's a common URealms gimmick we all know and love.
  • @knguy That is a better explimation than I could give. Thank you.
  • @knguy i think both are bad for the game but the wording says it should 
  • Personally I'd be fine with it, since to me Berserker is literally Big Damage the class. All I'd have to do as the GM is use anytimes intelligently. Take advantage of the card text too; multiple bad rolls on cleave can result in things like throwing your weapon or getting dizzy and falling over, so as the GM it would be my job to take advantage of these situations.

    Of course, the GM always has final say on what is allowed and what isn't, so this is just my take on it!
  • I would like to purchase Giant's Blood and Cleave for 200
  • edited June 2018
    That's how combos work @knguy

    Also they don't stack so it would be a 90 damage cleave
  • So what is the point of buying Doublefrost, Avalanche, or Unstoppable then? Why buy three weapons at all?
  • Roleplay... Not everything is about numbers @knguy
  • And also those abilities all could be worth eighty damage with the correct doubling and also add small things to the pot for extra @knguy
  • Eighty damage? Are you sure? With double damage in effect, doubling a target generally isn't gonna go higher than 40 damage unless you crit.

    The problem with doubling Cleave is that there are no Regular Abilities in the game that can reliably deal over 40 damage, unless you somehow managed to get triple damage and a way to double basic attack.

    If you take the wording of "This damage counts as a Basic Attack" and assume that damage can be affected by Double or Triple Damage, suddenly you have now got Cleave which would deal 60 Damage to not just one Target, but everyone adjacent to you (maximum 8, or 12 as a Large Tile). Not only that, you would also have Trample dealing 50 damage to all Foes you pass by as you move up to 10 spaces. I can't even fathom what triple damage would do to this.

    Leave the damage alone. It's perfectly balanced as it is.
  • If the Berserker is dealing 60, 90 etc with their abilities then it's still horribly unbalanced because the mobs need to be scaled upwards while the other party members aren't going to be nearly as impactful. 
  • @knguy You also have to remember that moves like Trample and Cleave can be quite dangerous to use in general.

    Cleave hitting everything adjacent includes allies which is quite risky when you're a large tile from Bearserk in a close quarters environment.

    A situation where trample would be more useful than single target abilities is one where there are many enemies in front of you. Trampling through and past the enemies can deal quite a bit of damage, but it also puts all those enemies between you and your party.

    These bigger and much more damaging abilities lend themselves to a more high risk high reward play style. You deal more damage on average than every other class, but you may end up dealing that damage to allies or leaving you separated from the party.

    The safer and more consistent play style is why abilities like Avalanche and Unstoppable exist. You deal less damage with these abilities than with the others which is still a significant amount of damage compared to the average turns of other classes, but these abilities come with features like bonus movement, impossible to miss, and can't be blocked.

    Rawb has already talked about how the abilities of each class fit roughly into two play styles. All the Berserker has is damage, but its up to the player if they want risky damage or consistent damage.
  • @Reizel ;
    Same risk, even greater reward. Because who cares about what your party thinks or what the enemies do next when said enemies are already dead?

    Please. Interrupt me.
    You'll either fail, run out of Anytimes, or kill me, and all three will still result in all the enemies getting absolutely bodied after running through them with several Tramples or Cleaves.

    If you happen to cleave your Allies, that's a small price to pay in the long run. They won't fault you, so long as the several Foes around you ended up in the same state. And if they do, maybe they shouldn't stand next to a Berserker during combat. They're known to be rather inconsiderate of their surroundings, as you may have seen in the latest edition of Berserker Monthly.

    No one says you're required to Trample straight through and past the enemies, though it's a fun ability in that regard. I believe you have to select a Target (and not a Target space, though I could argue for this direction as well) but you don't ever have to take a direct path to get to them. You can leave your enemies in the dust, remain surrounded by threats, or end your movement in front of the foe closest to your allies. There is no risk except for getting Interrupted - but the thing is, pretty much every Ability can be interrupted anyways, so what's this risk you speak of that makes it less desirable than the Abilities it vastly outclasses?

    Even if you have a single target, like a boss, in front of you, 60 Damage Cleave and 50 Damage Trample are still highly attractive in comparison to every other damage ability in existence. Every other class will easily struggle to catch up with your body count - it's already in the hundreds!

    Are you sure you want to double these abilities, my friend? Are you absolutely certain?
  • You ever looked at malnourish @knguy
  • @Sweatingdwarf123 ;
    Of course I have, and I knew someone would mention it eventually.

    Malnourish fits the general theme of the Petalwalker's offensive abilities in that it they are more effective the more enemies there are. For Malnourish, each Foe (provided they don't have passives affecting rolling) has a 25% chance of taking 50 Damage. In an ideal scenario, that's 1 out of 4 enemies taking 50.

    As with the other Petalwalker abilities, Malnourish's shortcomings are brought to light when the enemy's force doesn't come in numbers. It's not likely to do much against single targets or the big bad boss unless you get really lucky - thus why it is not a Regular Ability that can reliably deal over 40 Damage.

    But if you apply Double Damage to Cleave and Trample? It doesn't matter if you are going for a single target or a whole group of foes - they'll all take 50 or 60 damage for sure. And if they don't, you can just try again until it works.
  • I see it as not being doubled when worded "this damage COUNTS as a basic attack" because there are other abilities like high noon that say "hit targets WITH a basic attack"  because if it was supposed to be doubled it could just say "hit targets with a basic attack that does 30 damage" rather than 30 damage that counts as a basic attack.
  • Here's what I'd think. I think that the way Rob wrote/typed it, it is intended to allow you to double the damage of Trample and Cleave. Classes are typically designed to work well with other abilities in the class:
    Spellslinger: All in + Deadeye + Revolver = Every attack is a crit with a random-ish spell
    Sharpsword: Masterfulstrike + Oneshieth = 25 DMG to many foes as long as they aren't more than 2 spaces apart
    Sorcer for Ice combos on movement
    Warriors can take hits for allies and no-roll counter attack

    Classes are designed to work within themselves. With trample and cleave explicitly counting the DMG as a Basic Attack, the only ability in the class that functions off any Basic Attack is indeed double DMG from Berserking as a Large Tile, or Strong armed. Otherwise, that statement does nothing for the other cards available in the class

    But while I think its intended to allow double DMG, it definitely is up to DM discretion because I can easily see how it could steamroll through certain campaigns/encounters.
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