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The Final Gift?

 Doesn't the current way that the Final Gift spell is being described/used in Canon Urealms seem to be closer to the card rebirth, rather than its own card, finalgift.

I say this because it is rebirth that kills the target and places you in their body, which is what happened between Pablo and Marrel Limboratti, and is also what is also assumed to have happened between Gwyneth Sunsword, and and the spirit of the Grand Paladin.

Also the text on finalgift implies that both allies who are fused would share a consciousness, as the one who used the spell can still cast their spells from the body of their ally, and that they become a singular existence who would define both of its counterparts.

I mean I could just be misunderstanding how the card works, but in a gameplay sense, if a player used finalgift, the way that it is currently described in canon, on another player it would mean that one character dies and the other player now lives in the others body, actively kicking a player from the campaign.


  • @GeekyPack Rebirth doesn't kill the target and place you in their body, it kills you both and forms you into one. It wouldn't leave a a corpse. - Pablo was the corpse, and Marrel was revived and assumed the form of Pablo with their spirits intertwining. Final Gift doesn't imply that both allies share a consciousness, but instead that their appearance becomes that which looks like both it doesn't mention consciousness.
  • edited March 2018
    @UnluckyBimi for rebirth it says "you are reborn in the body of your target." So your target dies, your reborn int heir body. No fusion stuff happened at all. Essentially the same outcome as the final gift based on how rob described it in the campaign.
    Final gift is odd though because it seems as though you sacrifice yourself to resurrect someone else while rebirth is you stealing someone else's body.
  • edited March 2018
    You’re still fusing with them as that’s what the egg is doing. You’re in their body with your mind, with your skills. @Fera - Final Gift also doesn’t resurrect people, at least in the card it doesn't. 
  • My question is, is Gwyneth a Valkyrie? Was Virgo a Valkyrie? We know so little about what exactly one is. 
  • @Flavor_Town_Reloaded I guess, we must assume so. It was stated that Final gift is the spell used by the GPO to create the Grand Paladin. 
  • Well, I assume Final Gift is a reference to the Event from the Gobos of Pat called Pat's Final Gift so if we go with they are the same thing then it does mean that both people are alive with each other in one body as Pat was in Desnuttes' body and he could do the same things that the card Final Gift says. Maybe some things can be fudged for what happened in the show as Quintara Lotus was there and she can kinda change spells, maybe? Either way, I think Rawb just wanted a campaign where they used Final Gift so he can connect the storylines of Gwyneth becoming the Grand Paladin. 
  • The body we see could have been one other than Marrel's, placed there by QL or maybe Deadbones to have a place to start the investigation, while husband and wife fused consciousnesses with Final Gift
  • I noticed the discrepancy between the Grand Paladin and the actual card too. I'm assuming that the GPO's version is an altered, specialized version of the spell, while the usable spell scroll only does something similar. (i.e. the souls are still destroyed to create a new hybrid soul, but the spell scroll can't bring back the previous soul like the Grand Paladin version does.)
  • I know I'm pretty late to the party, but I don't think the Limberatis disprove the "abilities of both" portion. We have no idea what they were capable separately.

    Regarding the Grand Paladin Spirit, this may be a case where the spirit is stronger than the host's spirit, so it destroys or overwhelms the chosen Grand Paladin. 
  • @GypsyCow I'm not saying that it disproves the part about the abilities of both.  I'm saying that the way I had perceived the card is that both people still have consciousness and their spirits within the body, not just one persons. 
  • best guess is that what's written on the card is a lie. it wasn't known by anoyone other then Galen and the preists in the GPO that the spell kills the previous host, or at least Gwenith didn't know. Whatever the wife's name in GPO was may have figured it out somehow, but at the very least it's not common knowledge.

    that or the card was made before this bit of lore. wich is also reasonable.

    Regardless Gwenyth is dead, and that's all we really need to know.
  • It’s a bit soon to say that Gwyneth is dead, yes she’s not just “Gwyneth Sunsword” anymore but she is still Gwyneth but with a new set of memories and past experiences that will change her almost completely. She’s faded, not dead. @TamTroll
  • Or ya girl QL just wrote that letter to screw with Galen and we can't be confident in anything it say :P
  • Rob
    edited April 2018
    Final Gift is a sacrifice that fuses minds together.

    Rebirth just kills a dude and you take their body.

    It says on Final Gift that you fuse spirits. The Grand Paladin will retain Gwyneth's memories and even parts of her personality,but it stills required the sacrifice. Marrel Limboratti has her husbands mind inside hers and is going to change as a person going forward, but we never met her before the murder so it's not all that important. Basically Quintara Lotus in one way or another forced/tricked Marrel's abusive husband to cast the spell on Marrel, killing himself and fusing his soul with hers. We can assume that Marrel is very devoted/fanatical with Quintara Lotus.

    It was a super hard character to RP as because it's like they just fused and she has to keep her shit together, but I knew that it would be weird if she immediately was able to deal with the whole "husbands mind fused into yours" thing which is why i tried to play as her all over the place and confused.
  • edited April 2018

    To quote Nader himself. "Gwenith sunsword ... would be dead."

    it's outright stated. She's dead Jim.
  • @Rob ; i think you did a good job. role playing characters that isent really them self as a Gm is always a bit wonky as the players and in this case the viewers docent necessary know if its weird or unusual behavior for the character to behave in such a matter. but you made it pretty clear something was up, and most viewers seem to have understood how Final Gift worked and what was going on. 
  • If that’s how you want to interpret death so be it, but she is still in existence and hasn’t been killed. @TamTroll
  • edited April 2018
    Yes, Death is more of an interprative concept than a black/white objective truth in a universe where magic like this and Rebirth is involved.

    edit: oh, and Ageless, of course. Elves may consider them already dead, but most of us can see that they're still alive for all intents and purposes.
  • So with final gift is the break up of personalities that the most recent person is 50% of the total soul or is it that each person is an equal part of the total soul?
  • I think that everyone would just be equal in terms of soul-percentage, although it could vary over time and depending on who cast it. @Umlaut
  • @UnluckyBimi ; ?????? what????? no she isn't? He soul is gone, kaput, bon-voyadge. the only thing that's left of her is a body and some memmories that aren't her own anymore. everything that made Gwenith Gwenith has ceased to be.

    @Umlaut ; The soul is 100% Grand Paladin soul, it just has some new memories and a personality shaped by them.
  • Yeah, Gwyneth is dead, It's like if i put my memories and personality into a robot. I would be dead but an imitation of me would be alive.
  • edited July 2019
  • @TamTroll Her soul isn't gone, it's merged with another. Her soul is now part of another soul, if you put wood into a table that wood isn't gone it's just a part of a table. Also, "The soul is 100% Grand Paladin soul" goes against what Rob said, as it has her memories and parts of her personality. If it was 100% Grand Paladin Soul then it wouldn't have personality traits of Gwyneth.
  • edited April 2018

    So on the one hand, i wasted too much time on this that could have been spent more productively.

    on the other hand, it was a lot of fun to make. so thank you for that.

    Her MEMORIES are part of the grand paladin soul, she is not.

    ever play or see someone play the game SOMA? It's kind of like that. A Brain is scanned and the scan is placed into a vessel, while the original brain continues to live and eventually die. the Scan is not the original brain, it is a copy. it just has the brain's personality and memories.

    this case is somewhat different in that the brain is destroyed, and the copy is then mixed with the memories and personalities of multiple other grand paladins. it is not the same brain that the copy was made from, it is a copy.

    edit: Better example.

    Backup the files on your computer to an external harddrive. Everything you can, pictures, documents, games, programs, as much as possible.

    now smash your computer into a million pieces. throw it into acid, crush it, bulldoze it, cover it in concrete.

    Buy a new computer hot off the shelves, already pre-installed with a whole bunch of new programs and features.

    now plug it into the external harddrive and upload everything from there onto the new computer.

    is the new computer now your old computer?

    No. it's the new computer, it just has a copy of whatever was on the original computer, as well as it's own programs and files from when you bought it.
  • edited April 2018
    @TamTroll ;  i gave the video a like. editing something like that for a simple argument deserves a like.
  • @LexderMob

    sometimes text just ain't enough :P
  • There is one more thing to add on to this, spirit might not equal soul. They might be the same thing but it's unclear.

    We know that gwyneth's spirit is dead, but we don't know what happened to her soul. we also don't have any knowledge on the grand paladin soul ether.

    the only differences between a soul and spirit I could find, your soul is what you need for an afterlife. And a spirit is what gets merged in the final gift spell.
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