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Can goblins cast Creation magic?

I rewatched Okagnoma Guild Hall and Nisovin says that creation magic needs to be casted by voicing two magic words from two beings of a linked mind. Two headed ogres are candidates for this so long as both heads are smart enough to cast spells (of which the only one we know of is Dalfgan, who does indeed exist even if he is a believer)

But Greenskin goblins have linked minds too, do they not? Plus they always come in pairs, and can cast spells. Personally I choose to believe that they're not educated enough to cast creation magic but if they *were* educated enough then they could.

Hey, maybe there's even a story behind this! Maybe the reason Elves hate goblins is because a few Elves realised this huge danger early on and so quickly ensured that all Elves of all generations would not see Goblins for the highly intelligent (if not a little crazy) creatures they actually are, so they would never be permitted to learn about creation magic.

By the way, I love how Roamin's characters Marco and Polo play a huge role in this theory since they are the only canon examples of Greenskin goblins being played at their full potential (minus the possibility of creation magic, obviously...) in a campaign. It's always fun to give season 1 characters a little significance boost.

Oh yeah, last thing, I guess since creation magic has only been talked about by Nisovin and not actually seen in a campaign that makes everything he said only soft canon. So there's that.

its almost midnight imma go back to bed now nite
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Comments

  • It's borderline impossible with two separate people. If it's even slightly out of sync, both die.
  • @Drapperbat I can fully see this being a part of the reason Elves hate Goblins.

    Regardless, hopefully we get more confirmed Goblin lore some time soon so we can at least find out something more about the,
  • This is a great thought. @Rob ; or @Roamin ;need to comment on this.
  • I think that this had actually been brought up before. If I remember correctly, they need to be physically linked as well (hence when Dalfgan could) which is why the only goblins who could've done creation magic (to date) were Terrence and Warren (who were turned into just book characters).
  • The main problem is the mind link isn't confirmed cannon anymore. Sure Marco and Polo were green skins, but if my memory serves they showed little resemblance of the mind link, on top of that we don't know if the mind link could even work like that.

    Creation magic requires two vocal cords in perfect harmony, casting a spell in presumably some form of dragon or divinity language. Aside from the gnomes, which we don't know who or what created them, everything was created by the dragon aspects. Just as of right now we don't know for sure which created what. Its safe to assume if a divine created the goblins, they wouldn't make it so they could mind link spells. It would be dangerous to the dragons even. 

    If the goblins could use creation magic still even, they would have been either purged by the elves or wouldn't be so widely hated across the elven realms. I think if they did have the ability at one point, the deffinetly don't have it anymore. The elves would have stopped it in a similar sense to what they did to the Beenu. A curse like spell to prevent mind link spells, similar to a curse like spell to prevent breeding and immortality.
  • @Viizko Then what about the Ogres, then? Shouldn't they have culled them?
  • @UnluckyBimi Ogres have a dumb and smart head. Dalfgan was locked away cause he has two smart heads.
  • @CookiesAndMil_ Yeah, but here's the thing aren't Goblins essentially like ogres in that aspect. Two separate minds, that know the other, having to perfectly sync up, if we go down the "Elf cull potential creation-magic species" topic then ogres should be on there as well as the greenskins.
  • @UnluckyBimi well, I dont think that goblins are hated for that, because they probably cant do it anyways
  • I'd like to think that most of the time this is attempted random magic is cast & the goblins get hurt in the process. But I hope it becomes cannon that they can.
  • Yeah, i think Rob retconned the mind link.
  • Goblin telepathy has never been confirmed to be retconned.

    Though technically it’s not confirmed canon ether.
  • the idea is that in order for a person to cast creation magic they need two perfectly synchronize voices. being mentally connected do not fulfill this requirement. 
  • edited December 2017
    @LexderMob It could fulfill that requirement though. Just like how two normal people being insync could.
  • edited December 2017
    @UnluckyBimi ;  it is scientifically impossible for two living creature to perfectly sync there voices for more than a second or so. in the end we all have different vocal cords and process information in different ways. you can get close so it sounds almost the same but it isn't. one will always be a bit behind and a bit of. even if you mentally connect two creature they would still have a lateness problem in that connection just from how the brain works and process information
  • @LexderMob Not entirely true, also we don't know how close the voices need to be with creation magic. - 'cause here's the thing, Dalfgan's 2 voices probably don't sound the exact same yet he can use creation magic and it's never mentioned they're mentally synced. Also, you're using our worlds' science, which isn't exactly applicable to URealms.
  • edited December 2017
    @UnluckyBimi ; i agree that it wouldn't be right to make a full scientific comparison between our world and URealms. but Rob as stated the voices must be synced and that the reasons why other have fail trying to cast creation magic in the past, was because they couldn't sync,  but ok fin how would having a linkt mind help. my argument was has i described that having a link doesn't mean that you are for fling the requirements, as having a sync voice is the main requirement we know of. non of the goblins we see speak in unison or perfectly mimic one another. nor is it ever hinted that being linked would in any way be making you more or better in sync. the link could just be that you are able to read one and a other mind and that's it. the fact that we dont see them speech in sync support this theory. Dalfgan's might not need a mental sync because when we meet his believer version, he only showed signs of having one personality/mind taking out of the two heads in sync. that could explain how he can do it but other how try fails. so it could be that two mind´s wouldn't be able to sync as well as what is required. but one mind with two voices can as it naturally speech in sync
  • @LexderMob "two mind wouldn't be able to sync as well as what is required." There's no evidence of that, nor even a mention of anything like that. - The voices must be synced is the only confirmed thing that is said to be needed, although I do recall something that they must be physically linked (hence why Roamin's conjoined goblins had the potential for it) in order to do so. - We know way too little to say that A. The voices must be the same/similar. B. That two minds can't work together to use creation magic (although that splits into more branches itself). C. Dalfgan is similar to his believer (which was most likely much much weaker than him, and never used creation magic at all despite being in a quite clear fight to the death) or that the believer could use creation magic.
  • edited December 2017
    @UnluckyBimi ;  1, hence why Roamin's conjoined goblins had the potential for it. no he didn't create them with a potential for that! he did it as a gag. it has never been stated that the character has to be physically linked. 2 The voices must be synced is the only confirmed thing that is said to be needed, nisovin stated that he created believers of himself in order to sync and cast creation magic but failed. 3  Dalfgan is similar to his believer (which was most likely much much weaker than him, and never used creation magic at all despite being in a quite clear fight to the death) or that the believer could use creation magic. i use that example to show the difference between a normal two headed oger and Dalfgan. (not to clam his believer can cast creation magic) that he have two smart heads while other have a dume head and a smart one. the reason why he have two smart heads could be that he has one and the same smart mind in both heads. 4 from what we know it would not make much sense that two mentally link goblins could cast creation magic, there's a unknown reason why so why entities like dragons in the world can after all.and if it was that esy it would be prety pointles to have it as a big urdel to stert with. and also none of your argument have showed a good reason why two mentally connected goblins could cast creation magic, while so many others argument points out that the could be a ton of reasons why
  • @LexderMob 1. "hence why Roamin's conjoined goblins had the potential for it. no he didn't" No proof that they didn't. I do recall there being mention of a physical link at some point, but I can't really recall where or when (so we'll disregard my very vague memory on that point) However, on the phyiscal connection point: If all it required was a mental link, then Nisovin could've created 2 mentally-synchronised believers through writing a book about 2 mentally-sychronised versions of himself and thus cast creation magic (unless believers can't, then that explains why) or there'd be some puppeteer out there controlling 2 people (and thus, mental-link) and attempt creation magic. 2. Yes, the voices must be synced, but how synchronised is unknown (there are different stages of synchronisation). 3. It's an invalid example though, as there's nothing that really supports the line of thought you were pushing there (especially when 2 heads using 1 brain is essentially a mental-link in itself) 4. "from what we know it would make no sense that two mentally link goblins could cast creation magic," From what we know it makes no sense to claim that, since we don't know if greenskin goblins are mentally linked nor that if they are that some can't figure out how to cast creation magic.
  • edited December 2017
    @UnluckyBimi ; and how would nisevin created 2 mentally-synchronised believers? frome what Rob has told us about believer that would most likely not work. as Rob sateted, you would have to write a perfect explanation of how two mentally-synchronised believers works. which would be impossible. 2 but how synchronised is unknown, if two believers with the same voice can't, two goblets with different voices clearly wouldn't! 3, when 2 heads using 1 brain is essentially a mental-link in itself. hell no. two minds that are link is a link. one 1 brain that sends signals to two heads is not a mental link. it's the difference between two computers having to connect and sync or a computer just doing it. 4. "from what we know it would make no sense that two mentally link goblins could cast creation magic," From what we know it makes no sense to claim that, since we don't know if greenskin goblins are mentally linked nor that if they are that some can't figure out how to cast creation magic. HAHAHA the same goes for your idea that they could. to say that you can't prove i'm wrong hens what why i must be right. is to give up. its clear we just dont get one another or we just miss interpret the other. so i will not answer any more messages. by by  :)
  • edited December 2017
    @LexderMob 1. "a perfect explanation of how two mentally-synchronised believers works. which would be impossible" Not entirely impossible. Improbable yes, but not impossible. 2. "two goblets with different voices clearly wouldn't! " Dalfgan's two heads likely don't have the same voice, so isn't that the same as saying Dalfgan clearly shouldn't be able to use creation magic? 3. "two minds that are link is a link. one 1 brain that sends signals to two heads is not a mental link" What? A mental link is a link done mentally, AKA 1 brain sending signals to another so yes "one brain that sends signals to two heads" is a mental link and no it's not like "two computers having to connect and sync or a computer just doing it" at all. Dalfgan's body is more like a client-to-client link, where-as the example I gave to do with puppeteers is a server-to-client (when put into computer terms). 4. "the same goes for your idea that they could. to say that you can't prove i'm wrong hens what why i must be right" Okay, I don't call many things pure stupididty... but that is pure stupidity. "Can't prove I'm wrong, so I'm right" is total and utter BS (I could pull the same stupid card). If you can't prove what you claim initially it's false 'til proven right or evidence is provided to support the claim. - (Edit/Addition) I'm not arguing that goblins can cast Creation magic, just that everything you've claimed/argued so far has no grounding, no proof and is essentially just you claiming non-truths as truths without anything to back it up. (That's my argument: That you have no proof).
  • edited December 2017
    @UnluckyBimi ;   brain that sends signals to two heads one computer sending a signal to two microphones. that will always be more in sync than two minds that are link two computers having to connect, why can Dalfgan cast creation magic, well he needs to have something in similar with the dragon aspects that can. having a mind casting creation magic using two voices is a more fitting and would explain why other races can. remember it has not been stated that goblins hasten try doing it. Can't prove I'm wrong, so I'm right" is total and utter BS (I could pull the same stupid card) you are right but this is a discussion about theory. when your entire argument started with "It could fulfill that requirement though. Just like how two normal people being insync could" when there is nothing that says it could. you end up sounding a bit stupid when you then start saying stuff like. From what we know it makes no sense to claim that, since we don't know if greenskin goblins are mentally linked nor that if they are that some can't figure out how to cast creation magic. and as there's nothing that really supports the line of thought you were pushing there. 
  • edited December 2017
    now i have to go to bed is the middle of the night but was fun. we have to dis another time. see you later @UnluckyBimi ;  fun as always 
  • @LexderMob Again: "brain that sends signals to two heads one computer sending a signal to two microphones" Not comparable. A brain sending signals to two heads is essentially a server sending a signal to two computers, not a computer to two microphones (which would be like a brain sending signals to two arms or a different pairing of limbs or senses). - "why can Dalfgan cast creation magic, well he needs to have something in similar with the dragon aspects that can. having a mind casting creation magic using two voices is a more fitting and would explain why other races can" 'cause he has two synchronised vocal-chords. That's all we know so far. - "when your entire argument started with "It could fulfill that requirement though. Just like how two normal people being insync could" My argument didn't start there, as that was a "It could, who knows" type of comment. My argument started in my next comment after that. - "when there is nothing that says it could. you end up sounding a bit stupid when you then start saying stuff like: From what we know it makes no sense to claim that, since we don't know if greenskin goblins are mentally linked nor that if they are that some can't figure out how to cast creation magic." Firstly, you completely misinterpreted that sentence as the entire point (and line of thought) was "You have no proof, since we don't know the situation around it", so calling that stupid is just hypocritical of you. - Now, since you've back-pedaled enough (having already declared "so i will not answer any more messages" and already contradicted yourself at some points (which I've pointed out at times in previous comments) I think it'd be best you just stop altogether with unproven false-truths 'til there is more on the topic instead of just acting like; "YOU HAVE NO PROOF EITHER, SO I MUST BE RIGHT" when my entire point is "You have no proof to your line of thought, yet you are acting like it's canon".
  • I have been thinking about this recently and I am wondering, could fleshweavers create golems with multiple heads that cast creation magic or only a possessed one like Legion can use it?
  • @Noubi That does sound like a good potential for a creation-magic using entity, although I think it's "two vocal chords" more-so than just two-heads. (Just checked wiki: " their ability to cast "Creation Magic" by utilizing their two sets of vocal cords in unison" said by Nisovin in Okagnoma Guild Hall) so I think that the golems would need to be able to speak (at least to an understandable level) but yeah, sure seems like it's possible (which makes Legion a whole lot scarier).
  • @UnluckyBimi ; the idea is that in order for a person to cast creation magic they need two perfectly synchronize voices. being mentally connected do not fulfill this requirement. this is the original argument i made. i never calamd it wouldn't work just having two syncd minds just  docent necessary help in that regard. to i say anywhere that it is impossible NO. it is scientifically impossible for two living creature to perfectly sync there voices (as in "two vocal chords for more than a second or so) you said, Not entirely true, but it is completely true. and cause here's the thing, Dalfgan's 2 voices probably don't sound the exact same yet he can use creation magic and two set of vocal cords in one dragon could no of course not but " their ability to cast "Creation Magic" by utilizing their two sets of vocal cords in unison" this  fact is simplifyd. like you often do in fiction. beside there nothing saying that Dalfgan as two brains just two heads.  two normal people being insync could, niseven strongly sugests they cant. watch the episode again, he say folks have tried and it docent work. they cant sync up good enof. lastly You have no proof, since we don't know the situation around it", so calling that stupid is just hypocritical of you. o really but my entire point is "You have no proof that liking to minds helps in any way, yet you are acting like it could. now i suggest you came dow you are clearly taking an argument you started way to seriously. by the way i cant sleep now. so thats aynoing 

  • edited December 2017
    @LexderMob “ i never calamd it wouldn't work” Oh, but you did: “two mind wouldn't be able to sync as well as what is required.” - “You have no proof that liking to minds helps in any way, yet you are acting like it could” is BS. I’m pointing out how it is a possibility (as with physical-link) that you’re completely disregarding.  - I’m hardly taking this argument too serious, just pointing out where you can’t back up your claims. - Unlike your previous hypocritical statement of: “so i will not answer any more messages. by by” this is where I end this argument as I tried giving you the benefit of the doubt, even solidly stating the entire point of my argument multiple times but I really can’t give you the benefit of the doubt anymore: Sorry, but I don’t argue with stupid.

    (Edit/Clarification: Only on this forum-topic though, since you are being pretty damn stupid. Not calling you stupid in general, just on this topic at the moment - Edit 2: Also, going back and modifying your argument; poorly, doesn’t change anything.)
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