Lyn is still a bad person

Wombat · November 2017

Personally I think that Lyn is still a horrible person no matter how you string it. Us as old god’s never forced her to do anything, yes we may have lied and manipulated her but at the end of the day she still had a choice, and she chose greed. She chose to commit genocide for a child, she didn’t kill the beenu for the sake of the rest of the world, she did it because she wanted a child.

But I don’t know just my opinion

WritingWyvern · November 2017

( @Wombat )
Yeah, she is basically bird Hitler, who can rout for someone like that. Like if she killed the Beenu, because she thinks they killed one of the suns, then I'm fine with that, but killing off a race of people, hoping to get a child out of it, just seem greedy as you said.

Ninjathis · November 2017

I mean, she also believed the Beenu were the cause of Phanto dying. Nothing in URealms is completely cut and dry. It was two parts.

Everyone does terrible things in this world. We just see the "Hero view". What we see is the good guys. What about Boris and his Cobbler family? Are they not Goblin Hitler? Is Lance Ageless Hitler? Bopen also exterminates and conquers the light, is he also Hitler?
Personal gain is always a motivating factor. Everyone is bad, everyone has a defining feature. Cain is a glutton, many Elves are prideful racists, Lyn is greedy.

UnluckyBimi · November 2017

@Ninjathis "she also believed the Beenu were the cause of Phanto dying" that's not true from the information we have. We don't know whether she believed that or not. - Lance isn't ageless Hitler, since Gwyneth is the one who ordered the culling and also ordered those who were against it to do so. - Yeah, Bopen could be argued as a Hitler-like character. He wants all living dead so that he may rule over the Ageless as their God.

Awesomeagle23 · November 2017

@UnluckyBimi its kind of petty to say lance isn't ageless hitler. Yeah he didn't technically give the orders but do you have any doubt that he was one of Gwyneth's main executioners?

UnluckyBimi · November 2017

@Awesomeagle23 I do have doubt that he wasn't one of Gwyneth's main executioners. First, do we see him just indiscriminately hunt down every ageless ever? Nope (although that may be the biggest possibility). Do we actually see him kill ageless without a decent reason? Nope. - It's petty to just assume that Lance is Ageless Hitler when we know only a handful of things about him. He's got a fairly high rank in the GPO (since he was a Grand-Paladin candidate), he's head of the Lightbeards and he followed orders to check out a town said to be filled with ageless. Whether or not he was going to just execute them is unknown. - Now, I suspect you'll bring up "The Purge" party. They were ageless who came out of the sea, not a place people would typically come from. They also technically started the fight with the paladins at the dock. Now, you may bring up the Jimmy-Paladins which are an unknown variable here. The GPO is split(ish) between "Kill all" and "Don't kill all", we don't know what side Lance was on nor what side those Jimmy-Paladins were on. We know the public stance is "Purge them all" but not Lance's. - (Edit/Summary): So, to sum up: We don't know Lance's stance nor attitude on it and it's way too hasty to actually call him "Ageless Hitler" when there's more holes than a sieve in Lance's entire being.

Dolfinmaster · November 2017

@UnluckyBimi It was said in the campaign that Lance was dealing with the ageless on the north side of the town. If lance was on the dont kill all of them side he would have stopped to question them before he just started firing shots at them. Sure they started the fight but if he was as neutral as you are trying to put him, he still would have questioned. But hes not. To quote the divine decision: "Lance thinks Ageless beings are already dead and will stop at nothing to destroy all of them... at least for now." The at least for now was most likely alluding to the Bopen appearance that would turn him ageless to turn his view.

UnluckyBimi · November 2017

@Dolfinmaster "If lance was on the dont kill all of them side he would have stopped to question them before he just started firing shots at them". You're hardly going to try to talk to people who are trying to kill you, in a world like URealms (plus he didn't have Diplomacy). Yes, in the Divine Decision it may have said that but that doesn't automatically make him "Ageless Hitler" nor what stance he actually had. Yes, it says "destroy all of them" (plus, they're already dead so that part's right). The "at least for now" may have hinted at Bopen, but it could also have hinted at him changing his tone. - Am I trying to put him as neutral? Nope. All I'm doing is pointing out that we don't know where he stood and that some people are jumping to conclusions that he was all "YEAH! LET'S DESTROY THEM ALL!" of his own will without anything to do with orders. - My entire point is: "We don't know Lance other than him being a High-Ranking GPO member who also was the leader of the Lightbeards" in other words "We know his title(s), but not him". Not "He's neutral", not "He's not anti-ageless", not even taking an actual stance other than "We don't know".

Dolfinmaster · November 2017

@UnluckyBimi "He didnt have Diplomacy" that we know of. We have no idea what abilities he does and doesn't have. Just because Virgo used Arcane beam in doV and not in New Crew doesnt mean he didnt have the knowledge of the spell to use it. Litterally every single time Lance has been in a campaign, he has been destroying ageless. You cant take that and shove it under the door saying "oh its just 3 times we dont know the facts yet" Its an assumption based off of stuff that we have seen. You are assuming stuff based on stuff, we have no idea about. If he was truly not an ageless hunter (not saying hitler because i think its very idiotic to compare some silly roleplay internet characters to one of the most vile people in history), then he would have tried to detain instead of kill, by using stuff like a net.

UnluckyBimi · November 2017

@Dolfinmaster "Just because Virgo used Arcane beam in doV and not in New Crew doesnt mean he didnt have the knowledge of the spell to use it." How's that relevant here? We're a character's personality, motivation, etc not their abilities which can change drastically. "Litterally every single time Lance has been in a campaign, he has been destroying ageless." as the ageless in those campaigns have been attacking "innocents", and he's there protecting those being attacked by the rabid undead. - "You cant take that and shove it under the door saying "oh its just 3 times we dont know the facts yet"" I'm not, and him defending the living from the attacking dead is hardly him just killing ageless without a good reason. - "You are assuming stuff based on stuff, we have no idea about." You clearly missed my point if you're saying that. "If he was truly not an ageless hunterthen he would have tried to detain instead of kill, by using stuff like a net". Yes, because it's common practice in the URealms world to deal with your attackers by attempting to detain them rather than kill. Especially when they're attacking you first without trying to talk to you. (Sarcasm). - Also, "he didn't have diplomacy" was a little joke I threw in.

Dolfinmaster · November 2017

@UnluckyBimi Its obviously common if there is a card that specifically states that that is its purpose. Just in the few instances no one has ever used it to our knowledge, other than Hardrock. 100% they have reason to attack the ageless, but you cant claim him to not be an ageless hunter when its been shown thats what he has done.

UnluckyBimi · November 2017

I’m not claiming that he’s not an ageless hunter, nor am I claiming thay he isn’t an ageless hunter. - Also, almost any other living character would’ve also killed the ageless if they were placed into his boots in those 3 campaigns or do you expect them to go “Oh look, a skeleton is attacking me out of the blue. Let’s try to talk it out despite it quite obviously being aggressive. Now, I could tie it up bit it is a skeleton and a little imprisonment would mean little to an immortal.” @Dolfinmaster

kreeperkiller63 · November 2017

Yes we don't know exactly what Lance's stance an ageless is, but we have seen lance enough to know that he isn't pro ageless. But that doesn't really matter now be he is ageless now, his stance will surely change, and we have no idea what his stance will change too.

UnluckyBimi · November 2017

@kreeperkiller63 Well, you got the point. (And yeah, I know he wasn't pro-ageless. No paladin really is, sorta the point of paladin-ing).

Gyrozen · November 2017

A good villain is a good villain. You can still root for a good villain, just like you do your heroes.

Wombat · November 2017

@Ninjathis well yeah definitely the Cobbler’s and Bopen are evil in their own way. All I’m saying is is that Lyn is seeming to get a free pass because she was “tricked” into killing the beenu. However if killing phanto was a reason for it, then maybe you could make a argument.

username · November 2017

i wouldn't say she's getting a free pass. she just lost her baby again. and on the topic of whether these characters are evil or not, i'd restate that nothing's so black and white in urealms, and rarely so in real life. it's quite clear she wasn't in her right mind when she killed off the beenu, probably because we drove her to the end of her sanity with the visions. she's also lived for a REALLY long time, unable to do the one thing she's wanted most, which is to have a baby and start a family. i suppose after that while, you eventually get to the point where you've thought of what you're willing to sacrifice. and she did it.

she's definitely not good by any stretch of the mile (though she must seem so to her family), but it'd be unfair to call her wholly evil when, though you said she DID have a choice, she also wasn't sane when making these choices. think of it like this; she's a person whose wanted one thing for her birthday ever since she was born. she's been taunted with it after going to a magical tower for enlightenment, causing her to feel more trusting of what seems to be more powerful gods that could grant her, her biggest desire. our visions direct her to commit genocide, thinking of it as the price for her wish (maybe even tribute to us), and she still doesn't get it.

still, genocide can't be defended, so even with her insanity defense, she still does deserve punishment. and though you'd say she got that by losing her child for the 78th time, that's less a punishment for her misdeeds, and more of what could be considered our own issue. she thought we had a deal, and we broke that on our end. some unknowingly, others completely knowingly, but to her it's all the same. so in the end, she stepped down the dark side for no reason, with nothing to show for all that she's sacrificed. pretty tragic, really.

you know, when you think about it, us old gods are very similar to the egyptian gods. we're just about as kind... and uh, maybe with less incest and drama amongst ourselves, but you get my point.

UnluckyBimi · November 2017

@username Lyn hasn’t lost her child though.

Awesomeagle23 · November 2017

@Wombat I would contend that absolutely no one here can relate to what Lyn went through. She has wanted NOTHING more than to have a child over a period of potentially thousands of years.

Can you say that if you were in her position you wouldn't kill the Beenu? I'm not saying what she did was right but to resist the temptation of your only desire is something I do not think I would be able to do.

Also @UnluckyBimi no hard feelings, just a good spirited debate.

username · November 2017

@UnluckyBimi hadn't she? i'm aware that there's a chance that she hadn't (since we made our visions untrustworthy), but general consensus seems to agree that the last vision with her being comforted by bae mae after another miscarriage is true, despite the fact that she WILL have a baby. there's always the 79th, after all.

UnluckyBimi · November 2017

@username There was no vision of her and Bei Mei with a dead baby. - Rob's already mentioned this before, but that picture. Y'know the sepia N-signed one, that was just for an ending. Here's a link to the quote: https://forums.urealms.com/discussion/comment/366057/#Comment_366057 - And here's the quote: "lol it would be pretty stupid if Lyn saw a vision of her telling herself to kill the beenu to be rewarded with a child and then see a picture of her, her lover, and an empty crib. That clearly wasn't part of the vision if you think about it and was just an ending for the audience."

Awesomeagle23 · November 2017

So does that imply that the picture is entirely non canon?

username · November 2017

but then why have the image? it could easily be a means for us to know that her baby will die again. i can't see any other reason for it to exist, other than that. and it can't NOT indicate something.

UnluckyBimi · November 2017

I think so, at least for the time being. “Just an ending” is pretty clear. @Awesomeagle23

Awesomeagle23 · November 2017

I have to agree with @username I feel like it must mean either the baby was deformed or kidnapped or hurt in some way. If it truly means nothing then it's not much of an ending anyway.

Lyn is still a bad person

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