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Potential Ageless Spirit Plothole??

edited October 2017 in General Discussion
In old Lore Cards from season two, it is mentioned that Nathaniel "nothing happened" Granger took the spirit from his recently killed ageless wife into a nimbus familiar. Also, in the woodcarvers, as Jormr, Alyssa and her daughter, GWYNETH and Vitalli killied Ageless thralls, spirits were described being freed and going towards the light. 

In the most recent campaign, part of the justification for killing Ageless is they have no spirit. This could be justified with a hole in the facts about Ageless, but Gwyneth witnessed the spirits accending from even the most basic Ageless lifeforms. You may even say that Gwyneth spread these as lies to get the paladins to kill Ageless, but I counter with Bopen himself saying Ageless have no spirits. Some retconning is in order boys.






 

Comments

  • I think the spirits end up in a form of limbo as far as we have heard. We will never know for sure, but it seems that becoming ageless loses access to an effective afterlife.
  • This is all easily solved by something Rob said earlier with this campaign. Lore is not made with what characters say..
  • We have seen physical evidence for the ageless having souls, in Woodcarvers and The Cobblers, and we haven't seen any evidence backing the claim made by the characters that ageless don't have souls.
  • I think that what the jimmies and the paladins meant by ageless don't have souls is that their souls are locked away in their skulls. So the ageless have their souls, but they aren't even a part of them anymore. They lack a huge part of themselves, that was seal when they became ageless. Their souls are a big piece of who they are, and they don't really have control over them anymore. 
  • Also speaking of ageless and souls. Should an ageless even be able to use mentalassault as it involves removing your spirit fro your body and their spirits/souls are sealed in their skulls, and clearly are happy to be able to leave when cracked? Or is spirits and souls separate concepts in this? 
  • uhh a wizard did it
  • @mondrae205 yeah that rule makes sense when Roamin says something about the National Chilly Willy Association and Rob wants to retcon it, but not when two major characters base their whole ideology based on something that has been proven to both to be false.
  • @Mercury lol do you know how many humans have based their entire lives around falsehoods my man?
  • Jimmies are dumb and easy to indoctrinate.
  • edited October 2017
    @Mercury  ; Maybe Gwyneth just lied to make it easier for some Jimmy to kill innocent ageless ?
    Edit : Yeah Rob confirmed it... Nope jumping to conclusion too fast...
  • @Dalard Gwyneth lied? What evidence does Gwyneth have to believe it's not true? Hell Lance didn't believe anything and cowardly ran away after being forced to be ageless.
  • Ok good point. She may lie... I presume with how the ageless spirit acted in woodcarvers that it would influence Gwyneth judgement, but nothing is sure.
  • @Rob I might be wrong here but how was lance able to be converted ageless? Unless its a different ritual, the book of bones says it has to be 4 willing participants and i dont think you can be willing if youre dead.
  • edited October 2017
    @Dolfinmaster If you are alive than you need to be willing with the normal ritual, but there is maybe other ways to become ageless, like what the rat queen did to transform dead people into ageless. For exemple the curse on the rat queen axe.
  • It's also possible that choosing to become ageless and having it forced upon you by Golestandt result in two different things. As far as I'm aware (I may be forgetting something), we've only seen spirits leave the ageless thralls, so perhaps only they can achieve an afterlife. Maybe Golestandt locks the soul away in the thrall whereas choosing an ageless life corrupts or destroys the soul (or at least, its connection to the light).
  • @Rob But Gwyneth fought ageless in Woodcarvers and in that campaign the souls of the ageless flew off when their skulls were crushed. She has literally seen the contrary of what she's saying.
  • @Junkhipster ; She may simply have not seen it or think she hallucinated, and like FoolHardy says Gwyneth may believe it's different for conscious ageless, regardless if it's true or not.
  • @Dalard Or it's possible that Virgo/Bruce/Any other GP simply doesn't care what they see and are forcing her to go this extremist route.
  • @Junkhipster What you see and what you believe are two different things. If you lived your entire life believing ageless had no spirits or souls, killing them and seeing the spirits and souls leave their body might not make you believe otherwise and could in fact make you double down in believing your doing the right thing.


    You believe the only reason Gwyneth is hunting ageless is because they don't have spirits. I think considering her experiences with the Ageless since Season 1, she has now spent a good part of her post birth of magic life dealing with Ageless with her Sunsword family only to watch it unravel. There is also something mighty strange with Gwyneth in the trailer that while people on the forums may think they understand, they might be missing critical information to absorb the full context of her transformation.


    Haha you guys also need Nader's Unforgotten Tales Episode 1 soon here too. Gwyneth after all was never a pure Character.
  • @Rob Building the hype. I can't wait now!
  • Now I need to watch the trailer to find what we're missing! Revenge, a war, the thought that killing ageless is freeing them, the grand Paladin soul what else good affect Gwyneth?
  • Something that's just occurred to me is that noone on the living side, not even Gwenyth, knows the identity of the skeleton that killed Virgo Sunsword. Bopen's last words to Virgo were "I never did introduce myself".

    As far as Gwenyth Sunsword knows, she is fighting an anonymous skeleton king. Even if she had heard about Bopen, she doesn't know that the Skeleton King is Bopen. So not even she knows that they need to destroy Bopen's ring (or sword, or whatever) to destroy Bopen. An "Ageless god" is really all she can think the Skeleton King is. The Skeleton King can't possibly be Bopen to her, since if she does know about him then she should know that Bopen is dead.
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