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Who's side are you on? Vitaly or gwenyth?

personally I believe that Vitaly is right because the last thing the paladin order needs is more enemies. What do you guys think and why?
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Comments

  • I'm on Vitali's side, but he's not who we voted for. 
  • Vitali, I wanted lance to be grand paladin I'll take a dwarfs side
  • Vitali BUT not because of the standings in possition but his state and even head and consideration. Qwenth seems to be having issues and may not be mentaly stable.
  • Vatali probably has the right idea. Her/its (because she is fused with the grand paladin) motive for wanting them attacked is what i am on the fence about. What could the grand paladin sprit be thinking? what specific lore are we missing? how is it so sure that bopen is a divine? Who knows  :p
  • For a while I've been entertaining the thought of a campaign where Ageless are persecuted and perhaps even hunted down. becoming endangered in some way, because the living have the thought in their mind that skeletons = evil people.

    But of course, they aren't. Vitali knows this.
  • I mean it's obvious that Gwe..I MEAN THE GRAND PALADIN is supposed to be the bad guy/girl/thing. So in a way yeah I side with Vitali. BUT we do know that the ageless are coming to war anyway so instead of another purge, this should now count as a war crime for the side of the paladins. Thusly she can have some sort of excuse to this killing the inocent thing. Mass recruitement is something already know that Bopen does. Remember that history is written by the winner.

    but yeah fuck gwyneth

  • Gwenyth is the one I wish was right, but I come down on Vitali's side. Even if you were to destroy all the ageless, Bopin is more than enough to take on the Paladin Order by himself. Followers may need gods, but gods don't need followers. 
  • Vitali's side is the one most people would go for, as there is no good reason for killing civilized ageless. It's part of what robs said about characters- he wants no important characters or factions to be all good or all bad, I think in the BTS of Azveltara Z he said there'd be a time we'll cry for Bopen.

    That being said, I love dark storytelling like this and the direction it's going with Gwenyth becoming more evil-like. Makes me wonder what would be different if Lance was chosen.
  • Vitali's side all the way a purge it not the answer we need 
  • Vitali's side personally. But Crazy lady could have brought up a really good point which would have changed my mind, "The ageless bystanders could easily take up arms against the GPO so they need to strike first." But because this or something else pragmatic at all wasn't mentioned, leaves me to believe that she is will just be acting on pure emotion. I see no real strategic reason to start this purge to have been shown, currently. Currently, she just seems to be acting on rage/the flooded emotions of Virgo from when he died being rushed into her head.
  • its not really gwenyth its Virgo and Bruce and maybe another grand paladin if there was one before Bruce gwenyth doesn't really seem to keen on it when she splits into 3 people it shows the main one sad and that one is gwenyth i think and the others were bruce and virgo 
  • I feel obligated to say Gwyneth because of my icon.
  • I feel obligated to say vitali because of my icon.
  • I feel obligated to be very split due to my icon being a Dwelf.
  • edited September 2017
    I don't think Gwyneth is in control anymore... I think the paladin spirit is and its scared. Its scared because it has fought a thing it doesnt know how to kill. So when Gwyneth became grand paladin, she lost control of herself and the spirit controls her now. She wasn't prepared or ready. Virgo probably had many years of preparation while she wasn't even chosen for the roll. We chose someone who lacked the skill or control over a spirit of light. I think its safe to assume that Gwyneth is no more, and we just have the grand paladin now. She won't even accept people calling her by her name.

    But maybe this isn't a bad thing. The Beenu maybe didn't deserve their purge. But the ageless can bring death with them where ever they go. Sure they can mean no harm or be careful but they are diseased and the only cure is a crushed skull. Maybe the grand paladin thinks if he kills off all the ageless. Bopen will stop pretending to be one.
  • Vitali, but it probably wouldn't matter either way with Deadlantis going to war. Once the bulk of Ageless attack the Living, the Grand Paladin Order would have started killing civilized Ageless anyway. Just a question of preemption, which who knows, maybe more reason for war will be because of this Purge?
  • edited September 2017
    When I think about it deeper, I see some of the wisdom in Gwyneths decision. These "innocent" ageless may well become allies with Bopen if he comes knocking on their door saying join me or die. A cleaner alternative might be to protect them and bring them on your side, however this leaves the  grand paladin order dangerously open to betrayal. Ultimately a swift purge may well be the best way to deal with this kind of situation. 
  • @Shuckle something we haven't realised though. Is the ageless threat was very real while Virgo was alive, but he never (from what we know) considered a purge. Perhaps there is a reason to this? Maybe the paladin orders have secret truce or witness protection program. I mean this would be like killing all the mutants (Marvel) that don't want their powers or dont use their powers. Or like killing every ghoul (fallout) feral or not. The question isn't if its right. The question is who is going to try and stop it?
  • I have to be the devil's avocado and skittishly agree with Gwyneth this time. My reasoning is:
    [Historical context]
    Unlike the beenu, ageless aggression is well known, seemingly regularly occurring fact that is very well documented, plus if this is indeed a defensive war, then the Order is justified to protect itself against an enemy that literally could be anywhere, anyone (like some sort of attack of the body-snatchers story).
    [A known unknown threat]
    Also worth noting that this is an extreme measure for a reason, that is the former GP was attacked and killed by a crew of ageless and one of them is literally a living super weapon. So personally, in universe I would worry if there are more bopen-like ageless among them or is he an anomaly. Uncertainty breeds confusion which causes people to take extreme measure to protect themselves against an enemy.
    [Fantasy warfare]
    While the Purge is an incredibly violent step to take, it is important to see it in context that this is not an ordinary human-human war we can usually relate to, but a war against an enemy that is invisible and incredibly durable, an almost invincible one at that. So you could be a super attuned elven mage, a stocky dwarven brawler or an ancient super badass Grand Paladin that is thought to be unbeatable and yet still fail against this new kind of old enemy. I don't know what Rob is planning for the story but unless the Paladins has some surefire way to identify ageless in a quick and reliable manner, they are disadvantaged as fudge against them. I can't see why would the ageless not utilize cloak n dagger operations when they are perfect for that kind of warfare, which neatly loops back to the main dilemma of not knowing whether your neighbour is gonna kill you in your sleep or not.
    [Why not just detain them?]
    After Silvermine Mountain, I see no way Gwyneth would gamble on detaining ageless ever, knowing that letting prisoners socialize led to the prison riot. Also the unfairly imprisoned, even if they were innocent, could easily radicalize in such a desperate environment and is a perfect place for idea-exchange. So that is a big no-no, I think. Also, imagine the resources needed to run and defend it against regular spider raids (if S3C1 anything to go by), wouldn't it be clinically pragmatic to just put them out of their misery?
    [Acknowledgment aka "The part where I try to save my ass and prove that I'm not a sociopath"]
    While these reasons may be brutally coldhearted, I think in context it is a safe assumption to make with the knowledge Gwyneth has on the enemy she faces. I think this is truly the case of where a few rotten apple really spoils the bunch. And I have to admit that I'm not blind to the ironic imagery of a supremacist society committing genocide on an already oppressed social cast out of fear of a loosely related threat that may or may be not utilize said oppressed cast for their own goals is really showing me in a bad light, but this is such a morally ambiguous subject that I don't know if there is a right way per se.

    p.s.: made it easier to look at it and less of a wall of text
  • I seem to always go against the grain (in all divine decisions so far) and I think I'm with Gwenyth just that she's not going about it the right way, they should be purged just she's to reckless/unstable. It's like declaring that you're going to kill every race except elf, they'll all join together to take it down. Looks like Lance would have been a more stable Grand Paladin and could go about it the right way.
  • Vitali's side. I prefer the side of moderation. If the civilized ageless are not actively doing any harm, then let them be. It's not like they're competing for food resources. But just how many civilized ageless are there? As the Cabalist's Betraoil renders ageless undetectable, there could be far more ageless around than people think.

  • Honestly I feel as though I have to side with Gwenyth here like yes her ideology seems crazy from someone like vitali, but for us the old gods who know the impending war the ageless are planning the grand paladin order needs to take preemptive measures to mitigate the causalities for nonageless. Unlike other races in the realm the ageless have appeared to be the most violent after the elves so there is some logic behind the purge at least some more logic than the beenu genocide from last campaign imo. 
  • I want to agree with Vitali but we all know the ageless are coming so Gwenyth is right and they need to purge.
  • vitali all the way

  • I mean if you think about it, ageless are basically viruses that can talk. They can't reproduce on their own menaing if the whole world was ageless they would eventually die off by getting cracked skulls, they need a living host to survive and they possess both living and non living features. I see it as an infection. (Excuse the profile pic)
  • @Godbrothers *The Ageless army of Deadlantis is coming
    So?  Attacking random other groups of Ageless doesn't sound like a good way to protect yourself and prepare for the coming war.  Obviously Gweneth doesn't know about Deadlantis, but still attacking random groups of Ageless is probably the quickest way to ensure that the rest go join Bopen's side.
  • @Pyrotrap hmm that is true killing randoms wouldn't solve much at all I didn't fully think this through.

  • But if all ageless are purged then the GP and everyone else don't have to worry about ageless except for Goldstandt 
  • @Noubi We know that the Barringster family has developed a spell to identify the ageless, known as Bone Vision (BOOOOONES!). Whether or not they've shared this with the GPO is unknown.

    Of course, Phineas is the one who introduced bone vision, so it could just be his insane rambling, but we SAW him use it, so whether he developed it independently or not, we know detection of the ageless is possible.  
  • @Godbrothers  woah... they’d have to kill ageless and then detain Goldestant, because that dragon makes ageless!!!

    Im team Gwenyth though, because spiff is an amazing voice actress, also the ageless currently have way more numbers than the paladins, making them a terrifying, looming time bomb that could blow at any time
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