Professor Nader "Welcome to the URealms Forums! Please make sure to read the rules before posting!
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how it is over here.

i don't talk much on the forums. i don't talk much in general, so there's my preface before i start.

i'm just some guy who's been watching rob and urealms for maybe 7 or 9 years, and back in those days i was pretty young. i've been watching the community intently after i'd seen the recent announcement while trying to wrap my head around how i felt about it and in what way i'd respond. to be honest, you could argue my view isn't even entirely complete since i didn't have a free hour in my day to watch the full video, but here's me from what i'd seen.

i'm conflicted pretty heavily, even though i saw this sort of thing coming a mile away. it's a dream to live your life working creatively with the support of your fans. being able to tap into all of that potential and to have such motivation to use it... the end result could only be amazing. for the fans, it's a dream to see that amazing result of the full raw creative talent of a genius untouched by corporation. even someone like me who is usually pretty stoic got caught up in that wave of energy and passion because it was just so inspiring and life changing—hell, it inspired me to get more into these kinds of tabletop game projects and pushed me into finding a great group of friends to play/work with. rob was the only person i'd ever consider to be my hero and even now i still believe him to be one of the most inspirational people i've ever had the chance to see. it really isn't an exaggeration to say that the past few years has been an amazing dream.

i don't like to be dramatic unless it's for theater, so i'll just plainly say the "dream" metaphor wasn't a setup for a "now it's time to wake up" plot twist. on the other hand, i'm pretty content to keep dreaming. i've seen how dreary reality is and i know it's inescapable, but the real world is covered in too many boring grays. i like to close my eyes from it all sometimes and see all of that color, and urealms provided all the reds and blues. i want to keep refusing to accept the truth of the fact and keep hoping for a brighter world where creativity isn't squashed or restrained by the concepts of business and impossibility... but that's impossible so long as the impossible is impossible. our best bet from here is to meet in the middle and compromise—keep your dreams and passion, but be capable of living in this real world too.

for those reasons, i think i'll continue to support rob. i know a lot of people are going out of their way to bend over backwards despite rob's wishes and give every penny they can for this. i think that's scary to witness, and seeing all of that was one of the reasons why i hesitated to come to this decision—and this next part will likely be an overstep of my rights but i feel i must for the sake of transparently expressing my views—along with my fear for rob's creative dreams. i thought things were changing a lot and the original motivation at the start had become corrupted, but... even despite my worries of this being the case, i don't think it's a certainty, and i'm prepared to keep going until the time that that's proven.

i think i'm okay with all of this. it's a lot of change and it's scary and *maybe to an extent* it almost hurts, but who didn't see it coming? there's only so much one man can do for free in this world before the wear and tear starts to take effect. i can't trust people enough to throw all my eggs in rob's basket, but one or two wouldn't hurt just to see what's going to happen next and have the chance of it happening in the first place. best case scenario, something great hatches. in the worst case i'll deal and move on with my life. getting hurt isn't dying.

all i wanna say other than that is just to address the other fans and restate what rob himself already said; please give if you CAN, but it's okay to not give if you CAN'T. i hate to see selfless people ruining themselves for another and i'm pretty sure rob wouldn't want to be the source of an addiction. i distinctly remember reading a comment about someone working two jobs just to donate more and jesus christ that scared the hell out of me.

tl;dr, i was worried and i thought about shit, then i figured i'd write this and just keep doing me.

p.s; again, i regret to say i haven't been keeping too many eyes on the forums so i don't know if there are any unspoken rules not said in the actual rules about posting etiquette. if any of this is offensive then i'll accept obliteration.

Comments

  • @username
    I find that I'm on the other side of the similar boat in regard to this whole situation.

    I have a lot of conflict over the current situation, and I have analyzed and over-analyzed this entire situation trying to figure out in some regard why all of this is happening. In my mind, this doesn't connect up to the Rob I had thought I knew, and a part of me refuses to believe that Rob would put what is probably his biggest section of the community in jeopardy for a huge gamble and dream. I believed that URealms would have continued, and later after the stream, URealms would simply have a simple send-off...

    But the rest of me can't shake the disappointment that has come out of the way it was handled, and how the show is being treated now, and how it is basically being held ransom to gain extra money or else it either doesn't happen or loses some of the high quality it had.

    I have been a big supporter of Rob since the old DVZ Days when Pause and Etho and on the rare cases Guude would play, when everything was manual. I loved those videos and it cemented strong respect for what Rob did, and I continued to watch a lot of his stuff as a result. LoM, the brief time alongside Mindcrack, then to Nuren and the evolution into URealms, I enjoyed it all thoroughly. I would always eagerly wait for the Character Creations, and later stay up late to watch the entirely of campaigns live, even if it meant being awake at 4AM sometimes. I even had enough trust in Rob to shell out money for shows and merch, which I had never had the confidence to do before URealms and its influence over me.

    ...So it really hurts to even think that Rob has stopped caring- no, stopped respecting the community as much anymore. And yet, despite trying to look for other explanations to try and retain the praise I had for Rob, I couldn't shake the idea that he doesn't respect the feeling behind the donations anymore.

    I always had felt like the donations I chose to make towards URealms were done in admiration and appreciation for the shows and the effort which goes into them. I wasn't confident enough to make any donations above £5 or so due to the fact that members of my family would ridicule me for throwing money at an online creator and anything larger would make enough of a difference to have my donations outed, and even when I went and bought the 3 shirts I own, I had to lie to my relatives to avoid the ridicule of my siblings. I had enough trust to make decisions I knew would affect my mental health terribly if they were discovered by my family.

    And now, with the threat of helping to cough up $20,000 each month or lose the show I cared about more than most things? It makes it feel like I can't make donations in appreciation for the show anymore, but instead that donations are expected or else losing the show I have donated... probably an accumulative $100 into. That the kind-hearted nature of everyone's donation doesn't seem to matter much anymore, but only the total gained does.

    That shift gave me a reality check, and it made me stop looking through what I hadn't realized were rose-tinted glasses. There were some amazing things done, and the wholesome nature that was given to boosting Hive was amazing, to begin with at least. But, it also let me properly see some shifty methods which really should have been clearer, if it hadn't been for a previously incredible level of trust I used to hold for him.

    Calling things scams originally felt like just a part of the community dynamic, like it was meant to be a part of community slang... but now I have my doubts which tell me that maybe he chose to call them scams because he downright chooses to admit it to us that it really is a scam. That maybe all Rob might be is a professional scammer after all, leading the community on the longest of cons. That some folk like Justin might have realized something akin to this long ago and left when he did...

    I hate even considering things like that could be true, but now it's a feeling that I can't shake despite my efforts to try and see things in a considerating way which gives the benefit of doubt. 

    I still want to support Rob with my viewership, to show that I do still care about his content despite everything. But the sheer level of respect and trust I once had was crushed. My trust and admiration for Rob's work has been smashed down to a fraction of what it used to be, but there is still a degree of respect and trust in which something continues on. It isn't at a good level right now however...

    I can't feel comfortable giving what I could to his work anymore.

    The problem with that now though? With the monthly-show donation events stating that Rob only cares about the numbers on the donations now... I genuinely fear that Rob will start to view me as a lesser follower, all because I can't feel comfortable enough to spend a few bucks a month like I used to. That I won't matter much to Rob anymore because I surrendered my power in the community and so believes me to not matter in the community now due to not being another wallet to cash out from.

    A lot of this entire situation doesn't feel like the Rob I thought I knew, making such a huge gamble in what appears to be greed and holding the show ransom over its community so that he can give himself and his crew a raise... It's a view I hate to think about from the funny, charismatic creator of URealms and the subsequent community... But it's the view which I find stuck ontop of the rose-tinted glasses and causing a lot of internal conflict.

    I will still try to watch Rob and his content like I used to before, but the respect and trust I once held isn't strong enough to warrant me to be comfortable contributing to support this.

    I only hope that this gets read and considered, rather than being thrown out and deleted, or even god forbid choosing to ban me for what i've said.

    (I feel like Mufasa clinging onto the cliff while writing this. I'm worried and scared about what might happen, feeling like I have to say something, and i'm just hoping that Rob or Megan or someone doesn't come up to me like Scar, seeing what I have said, and deciding to doom everything i've gone through with URealms if it suited them...)
  • I feel so weird because I have no problem with Rawb is doing. Urealms is my favorite show partly because of the fucking amount of work everyone puts into it and how big it is given how small the following is. 

    I have no problem with set monthly donations to support it continuing. It's treating it less like a weird indie niche project and more like well, a legitimate normal show. Shows that have real budgets, salaries, and do not get made if that money isn't there. I just graduated from film school so the important of budgeting and making sure all your bases are covered before going all in is something I learned there. Passion can only do so much.

    I just see this as Rawb treating this like a actual legitimate show. It may lose it's niche indie charm by doing that, but a show of that quality really needs it to survive. It's either that or he finds the Escapist 2.0 and gets a big company to support the show. Which would be shit and Rawb himself doesn't want that for obvious reasons.

    Is Rawb just one big scammer? idk. If the end result is entertaining shows then it's a scam that's worth it for me. I think people maybe just don't fully get how much work Urealms needs to work. It's a lot of shit to do and I can see why it would be draining on everyone involved, even if it's succeeding fully.

    Will Rawb make his goal? idk I hope so. I don't want to see it end, but I don't want to go insane trying to do so much when the passions not there. I've been with Rawb since his first videos on Rurikar. I''ll stick with him until the end no matters what he decides to do. 
  • It all just feels like the unfortunate progression of shows and projects that start out small but great in quality and enjoyment of fans, to becoming bloated and overproduced to make bigger and flashier.
    It reminds me of The Simpsons, Family Guy, South Park and all the other adult animated shows that go in that route; funny and genuine in the beginning but then becoming bigger production values and money sinks for fewer and fewer shows.

    URealmsLive was at it's best in the first 2 seasons when the budget was low and it was more focused on the game and telling fun stories for the players and audience. 
    At least tha'ts what I'm feeling from all of this. :/
  • those are all understandable concerns. i never really thought about whether this changes how he's viewing his fans or how the people around him see him as, but since i don't have those answers i think i'll still choose to wait and see just to give him the benefit of the doubt. 

    i also see how the spirit of donations would seem different though. to me, the way donating has worked for urealms has never really been as donating should've been from the beginning. truth be told, there's always been pressure to donate. if you don't donate, events don't happen. if you don't donate, you aren't supporting the show and you were just taking it for granted. that was the sort of mentality we had from the get go. the difference between then and now is that the veil of "donation" has been all but removed so now there's a price on the show and it's becoming a business.

    i'm not gonna lie. i'm incredibly worried by this as well. we've all seen what happens when cool things made for fun turn into businesses and the money starts talking. my childhood was made on independently made fun creative stuff like this and they crashed and burned on this path because you can't turn fun into business, but what else do you do when you're running low on cash because you sunk all your time and money in fun? you have to get a job. your project loses spirit and time in your life. it's left to collect dust in your closet. i think this is natural if you want to go big... but jj terror also might be right that this is just greed in effect. this all really came out of the left field for us fans. everything seemed fine a minute and the next rob's asking for more donations or else he annexes the show. you have to wonder what's pushing him to make these kinds of demands if it's not greed.

    (also totally relate on the fear of getting banned for talking this way. honestly if i didn't feel so attached to urealms i wouldn't bother, but there's gotta be communication or else it doesn't work, right?)
  • @username

    I wouldn't say it's greed. I think it really is simply he knows what he needs and what he needs to pay his friends for their work. All that fun early internet stuff can't exist forever without money being given back to pay for it. Certainly not something on the scale of Urealms. Seriously there's a lot of work that goes into that. Like a whole fucking lot. Passion can only carry you so far and Rawbs been working off of passion since 2007. 

    Rawbs overall point is if he doesn't have enough fans to financially support what he needs to continue making the show, then the show stops being made. Not just Urealms, but the show that is Rawb. Rawb retires. He's given a good 12 years, but if after all that he still can't make what he needs to keep going then it simply can't keep going.

    Does that suck? yes. Do I want Rawb overworking himself to make a show. No. Even if the show is the most important thing to me then anything else online. 
  • @Kalazar321 ;
    i don't mean to call it greed to want pay for your work, it just seems that from an outsider's perspective everything was fine before the pay raise, and if that's the case then why change anything? then there are many other works like this that, again, went the same route of being run on passion an creativity and then changing its focus, and the end result is a dream losing color. but if that's his point and he hasn't been making enough money to support himself and his friends then this definitely has been long overdue. i don't want to see urealms die as much as the next guy, but it's even worse to hurt rob just to make it. art can't be valued more than the creator.
  • @username
    We all just need to remember we are just fans. We have no idea on the financial issues revolving the show throughout its years or if it truly has been making enough or not. Its out of left field simply because we only see what Rawb puts out there. It was always going to be out of left field. There was no avoiding that. Our perspective is just that, our perspective. We lack the full picture.

    I just choose to trust Rawb since he's been apart of my life since early high school. To be fair I think Rawb is undercutting what he really needs, but if he can't even make the goal he set out then he simply says, "alright, so I'll just retire" I get where he's coming from.
  • If you think I am being greedy, don't pay me.

    I think me and my team are worth MORE then the lowball number I'm putting out there to pay us but thats because I am only asking for what I feel like we need to keep going and doing what we do without stress. If me and my team can't get paid, that's fine... I just wanna make art and not worry about debt so my fans can worry instead.

    I understand how repulsive that might be and if you don't wanna support me don't, but then I would like to retire because after 12 years if I still have to struggle to pay the few people with me then man I gotta go to another life style because this one is too stressful and makes me hate my art.
  • @username Yes. From the outside it seems like everything is fine because my job is to make it seem like everything is fine. Fans aren't interested in seeing a depressed, sad, broke, stressed creator which is why so many of you are reacting the way you are. I feel soooooo bad for some of the people in these threads because I know that when I retire and move to a corporate life they are gonna fully understand why I'm doing this by then.


    My heart aches seeing other creators never accept donations because they are afraid to be paid for their entertainment because it basically says they don't see the value in what they do. When I carry these money stresses from month to month to make shows it means I spend days and days coming up with fun ways to SCAM you into donating to me. Donate for this event! or this Event! everytime something NEW and INTERESTING when 99% of you don't give a shit about any of this and care about the show.

    Everyones telling me to take a "break", but nobody is telling me how to pay for it. 
  • true. i'm just trying to look at it from all sides because i've seen the worst case scenario be more prevalent than the best case in these situations. don't get me wrong, i still have faith that rob isn't one of those guys, but i can't lie and say it's to the extent that i can stop myself from thinking of the what ifs. it's really just fear of being manipulated.

    no, i find that completely understandable. sorry for being short-sighted and not thinking about your situation in full, but the shock of the moment and that fear of something important to me being threatened had me questioning if this would be one of those times when a creator of a crowd-funded project would suddenly seem to change and then their supporters would realize the person they were supporting all this time wouldn't be the person they thought they were. i've been through that once and i don't wanna go for a double. i think everyone who's been there too would know what i mean when i say it's incredibly crushing and makes it hard to trust afterwards.

    and honestly, if this is what you need to do for yourself and your team then it's only right i support that. i'm trying to become a comic artist. if i can't support someone wanting to be able to put food on his table with his pretty cool internet game/show hybrid then i'm probably screwed in 3 years.

    i know you hear this all the time, but i care more about you having a good time and a good life than about the project and all the fun i'm having watching you and everything you do. i could never find anything on the internet to take the place of your creations in my world, but it's insane to value art more than a person's life. if you decide to retire instead of all this creative work anymore, do what you gotta do—i'd fully understand and support it.
  • @username

    No worries!

    I think because I've been online so long and follow a fuck ton of creators, I'm not judging Rawb to harshly here or at all really. I've seen burnout go all the way. I've seen a extremely niche and talented creator disappear and reappear and disappear again all due to burnout. His names Endless Jess if you're curious and you know where nearly all of his content is at this point? Patron exclusive. His dedicated fans able to pay are the only ones who get his creations because he's not interested in the rather toxic mass audience he has gotten before. Internet creators deal with a lot of shit and it fucking weighs on them hard. Especially for as long as Rawbs been doing it. 

    While Rawbs situation may or may not be similar, I do know Rawb isn't looking to be popular. Fucking just join Rooster Teeth or some shit if you want that. He wants a dedicated fanbase able to truly support him. His ultimatum is if he can't get that after 12 years then fuck it. He's done. Retiring. He'll become the business man for real and end his creative pursuits. 

    I do not want that to happen at so I hope enough fans get this and choose to support him financially. To quote another group I follow online "It's worth a dollar if it makes you laugh" Even that can help. As much as I won't like it if he quits. I can't truly blame him if he does. 

    As for being manipulated. In a sense all internet creators are manipulators. They have to somehow get enough people to pay them for shit they release for free. Did Rawb manipulate me to give him $20 or did I do choose that on my own? Eh who cares? I know what I want, more Rawb content. I'll pay for it since that's how to make that happen. I want to be one of those 1000 dedicated fans. 
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