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Are the old gods(Us) evil?

I have seen some people bought this point up a few times, saying that maybe we are evil, that we cause most of the evil in this world. It is an interesting view to say the least and not an unwarranted one, seeing what we have done. However in my opinion, no we are not evil, I think the best comparison is saying if you gave a child a nuke and he used it when he had a tantrum would we call him evil? Probably not, most of us are somewhat unaware of the power that we actually wield, the choice that we make are often made with little thought. This is changing, I feel like Alterzara Z divine decision woke a lot of people up about the actually power of the choices we make. I feel the most that can be claimed about us is having a god complex, which is probably true, it is meant to be a story, naturally we are going to be drawn to the option with more action behind it, morals are because of this often put to the side, at least at first, when we didn't realise the impact we have, I feel like the attitude has changed, some people are now concerned with it, they feel a attachment, they now care about sides winning or losing. For example, I am going to give you a list of what I would of chosen for the divine decisions.

Grand paladin order: Lance, as a person who has not watched season 1, I am not attached to Gywneth and I personally felt that Lance was better prepared for the task ahead, Gywneth just didn't seem that interesting, I imagine that was somewhat because she had character development before but still

Senate of Deadlantis: Out of the war, this was actually not for any moral reasons, I was just more fascinated with the idea of a neutral ageless faction, there was a lot of story potential there that I felt was more interesting then going to war

Azeltara Z: Lyn getting pregnant, and no I would not regret the choice, while lyn not getting pregnant would be interesting, I was far more interested in the idea of a new character been raised by Lyn, a cool assassin. I don't feel guilty about "rewarding" her as I felt her actions were justifiable, given her knowledge at the time.

The Purge: Vitali, reason is somewhat simple, I was far more interested in the idea with Vitali going and potential turning his back on the order, or it being reinforced by some of his friends being killed, with Lance we never seen his attitude too ageless falter so less interesting, will admit I would of changed it once I knew he was going to become ageless from Bopen, Lance changing is far more interesting in my opinion.

Azeltara Gaiden: All vision are true, I will admit I think this is the hardest one to chose, both are extremely interesting potential, for me I think all vision being true is more interesting just because of the march towards fate, the idea that if people knew these vision were always true, makes it far more interesting, then them possibly showing the future, plus makes theory crafting far more easier.

(Note, I actually never voted, the streams are on too late for me, they start at like 3 am in Australia)

Beyond that at the moment I am far more on the elf side then the ageless, while I will admit the paladin order are overly aggressive and non understanding about ageless, I am sorry but I despise Bopen, hate him. He seems like someone who just likes to hurt people and cause suffering, without any charm or redeeming qualities.

What am I saying this for, simple, we are all individuals, together we are the old gods, we have the power to shape the world as we want it, we have massive power, yet our goals and wants are extremely separate, we each have our own goals and wants, we each have our own logic, that is what makes the old gods what it is, the old gods as a group has no goal, outside of entertainment, don't think of the old gods as a singular being or even group, can you feel regret on a choice? Sure but don't think just because the old gods have made a choice, doesn't mean you have to feel guilty, you are your own person, the olds gods in reality is this, a group of people who watch a story for the reason of entertainment, who individually are weak, however with each pitch they put in, the stronger the power gets. Each individual has it's own wants and goals, each as distinct as the last. Don't say the group is evil, at most you can call some individuals inside of it evil

Comments

  • @Mortem Are we evil individually? No. Is there such a thing as evil in the first-place? Not really (although, depends on interpretation). - "if you gave a child a nuke and he used it when he had a tantrum would we call him evil? Probably not," The child probably wouldn't be evil, true, but he caused an act of evil. - We cause Evil, We cause Good, but in the end it's all just a shade of Grey.
  • I see my self as more lawful good :peace: 


  • Are we evil? Not so much. Floundering wildly in a black sea of mayhem? Likely. Desperately grasping for a moment of "control" thrown to us by an even madder soul out in this abyss? Definitely!

    Chaos doesn't always mean Evil.
  • Oh boy oh boy, as a philosophy student i can comment heavily on this. 

    First of: What is Evil? The Google Dictionary would have us believe it is something immoral and wicked; So what is it we did so far? We gave Lyn a baby - not an inherently evil act. Then we voted to make not all visions in Urealms truthul. Again, not an inherintly evil act - one might argue the actions Lyn took as a result of our voting Evil, but the acts themselves are rather simple and not evil. 

    Indeed when you only have two choices, and their picked almost entirley randomly unless your @HCJustin, can it really be classed as bad, especially when we do not know the full consequences of our actions. And at the same time, donation events such as killig Phanto, the families of the party members, making Roamin cry - is that evil? do people spend money on the donations because they physically would want to see the families die, or do they vote so they can support Rob, Six, Kelli, Lily, Megan, Haunter, Coe, Justin, Spiff and everyone else who works on the show? 

    Personally when it comes to morally ambiguous donations, my answer is that they will always go off, no matter what. Especially if Rob gives a big reward for them. 
  • No donation event has ever been positive, so objectively, we are evil.
  • @Dart why is it that we refer to divine decisions as votes? the majority lost this last one. ultimately the only person who voted/ made a decision was one person in the community in that moment.  
  • @Maris There has been positive donations in the past.
  • @Maris

    *pushes up on her glasses* Ackshually!

    Haha, just teasing. But there HAVE been positive donation events. And some events may seem to be negative but by overcoming them there are positive outcomes. Let's look at a couple; shout out to the wiki folks for keeping track of the donations!

    https://wiki.urealms.com/wiki/Supporter_Events#s3c1

    HYPER HONOR CHAINS: Galen having mastered the Honor Chains spells causes multiple copies of it at once and rips a spiders which instantly kills the spider. The XP from killing a spider with this Event is worth twice as much.

    NADER LEOMARIS: 
    The second of elves, Nader Leomaris, shows up uninvited to present a gift to Louis. It is a Legendary Item, but one you have seen before. Nader may also have an extra gift or two for Players if they are lucky.

    Every Player may roll for Legendaries twice. This is the only time they can potentially find Legendaries this week.

    WHOOPSIEDOODLES: Bottled from the tears of the rare Gumioh nine tailed fox, Whoopsiedoodles allow a little bit more foresight instead of hindsight allowing those who consume this rare elixir to foresee a potential mistake, but not be able to see a mistake made.

    All Players are given a Whoopsiedoodle Consumable card which allows them to reroll a single Critical Fail or Miss. This may be useful if you believe the Players are competent enough to undertake this mission for the full rewards of the Game Not Really Over event or for future use with these Characters.

    ---

    These are some of the more positive ones. I think Rob has done an excellent job balancing the events because they may sometimes add a layer of difficulty for the players but if they are successful there is a reward for their ability to overcome it and that makes the show even more interesting!

  • @Sixelona There's also the Ice-Floor from the most recent campaign's Tower of Ultimate Wizardry, where all 3 donations were positive for the party.
  • But the positive donations are most of the time opportunities to help the party, I don't see "positive" donation for the story, there just negative one like kill phanto, pain-visions, kill family member... Not that I complain, I like the current dynamic, but it would be cool if we had more donation event to do good in the Realm other than helping/saving the party.
  • Simple answer: Very
  • Yeah, we are
  • edited November 14
    @UnluckyBimi @Sixelona I regret getting into this argument already, but I think you are mistaken. Yes, there are positive donation events for the characters who are being followed in the current campaign, but in the grand scheme of things, just about every single one has turned out bad. It's very questionable whether giving a reroll to the Azveltara assassins is a positive thing, same with many other groups. Hell, even Chilly Wizzy's coat is now in the hands of Khn'n-Rell.

    Question me if I'm wrong, but we were the ones who donated to kill Gwyneth's unborn child out of curiosity. As well as letting Maelstrom into the show so he can kill Jo Krystall. And I'm not even getting into the Senate of Deadlantis donations, well I may later, but you already know how those turned out...

    We cause a lot of terrible things, and hardly any good things. I have a feeling that's what this Order of Chaos thing is getting at.

    "We meet again, yet still for the first time, 
    Tomorrow I join a New Crew, then next day a terrible crime. 

    You had your chance to follow my path, 
    But you chose The Law, instead of blood bath. 

    You create those like me when you over extend, 
    Sins burned into flesh that cause us to ascend. 
    We feel you when you watch, 'Brutality' is your name, 
    To you, the gods above, this is simply all a game. 

    And so enjoy your story, the one you picked over me, 
    She will turn on you soon friend, just wait and you see. 
    We are the Order of Chaos, born from your Sins, 
    Our Vision, your gift, our Body, your skins." 

                                                                                                -Maelstrom, from the 'The Skeleton King' 

    Yeah... I have a feeling the donation events aren't balanced good or bad quite as much as we'd like to think. Although, I have a feeling we've been punished accordingly for them already with things like the Beenu kill chamber in Azveltara Z, which we now know has a pretty good chance of being our fault.

    "Bopen is your weapon used to punish the gods" -Azveltara Z preview video.

    Alright, I have no idea what that part means though... 
  • @Maris Sure, the events aren't balanced over-all 'cause that wouldn't make a show as interesting. Firstly, SoD's "bad" events weren't actually influenced by us (in that they'd happen with or without our donations). Look at GPO's donations as the majority of them were "Good", and not just for the party (yeah, there were a few ageless-beneficial ones but for that campaign the GPO were the protagonists and ageless antagonists). - Now, for a more "grey" type. Okagnoma Guild Hall's donations could all be classed as "beneficial" in some way as it teaches students some lessons. - Now for another, this time relating to Maelstrom's rhyme/poem: "You had your chance to follow my path, 
    But you chose The Law, instead of blood bath. " 
    Is quite obviously on about Buckeroos/Murder Bros. The Law won (although the Murder Bros would've had a decent chance if the over-all donations chose for the Law to have suicide-dwarves attacking them) which is a "win" and is quite clear just from the "Murder Bros" name which faction was "good" there. - There's plenty of "beneficial" donations for "good" reasons that haven't turned bad (yet. there's always the chance that some will end up being "bad" in the long-run, just like how some of the bad can become "good" in the long-run).
  • I feel like we're deceivers and tricksters. We like to play around and stir up trouble and see what becomes of it.
  • @UnluckyBimi Well yeah, at the meta level, they would happen anyway, but at the story level, the Birth of Magic is all our fault. And after all we've seen, I'm not sure whether the GPO even is the correct party. 

    And since you brought up the Murder Bros vs. The Law, I guess we're getting into Divine Decisions now. First of all, since that Buckaroos final fight placed old gods against other old gods, each way is going to be considered good for some people, and bad for others. Same thing with Divine Decisions. They aren't like donation events where it's do something or don't do something, these are way different. They are decisions made by individual old gods, while donation events are us as a whole. The Divine Decision winners were asked to make characters for a reason, most likely to do with the order of chaos. But we're getting sidetracked. Yeah, I have a feeling Divine Decisions will never be considered good nor bad. There are no "wins."
  • Here is my take on the subject. Evil is the most black and white thing ever, and Urealms isn't black and white. There is no good or evil, there are just different opinions on how things should be done. None of the actions we have took are seen as bad by the entire realm. There will always be someone who thinks what we see as the more wicked crime, a good deed. It's just a different prospective where nether/both are right.
  • @kreeperkiller63 The only things black and white in URealms are certain Light and Dark spells, as well as those old photographs the gnomes made a while back, those had no color either!
  • cause the genocide of a race of bird people kill the sun dragon god kill a woman unborn child.
     
  • I don't think we're evil, so much as we are just beings of raw power. The unfortunate side is that most of the time, the only outlet for that raw power is negative effects.

    It's kind of like plugging a battery to any kind of machine, no matter what it is, it will take the power from the battery to run itself, and the battery has no option of not giving it's power. So if you put that battery into a laser gun pointed at someone's face, then... that someone is going to get lasered.

    So really, it's not so much that we're evil, as it is the outlets we're given are. In my opinion at least.
  • edited November 15
    We cannot be defined and judged by the mortals of the Unforgotten Realms for we are above their comprehension! sides, our actions are all in fun in games...
    *evil laugh*
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