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Which one would be more effective, the Bandito cartel or the Bonedancer thrall army?

Both Bandito and Bonedancer have the ability to create hordes of fellas to fight for you and these are my 2 favorite classes. Which class do you think has better hordes in general?

Comments

  • I feel like they are pretty different, banditos seem like they are more of a utility support class, while bonedancer is a class that thrives on deaths and has one character that's stronger. I'd say that it really depends on context. If you have already surrounded your enemy and need more things to help you deal little amounts of damage, bandito is better. If you need to work on damaging your enemy and are trying to actually kill them I'd say that bonedancer is better.
  • Well bonedancers can support their minions better using death flame and etc giving them an edge in my opinion.
  • Hmmm... I wonder which is better in combat, bandits, or Ageless Thralls that can cause Deathrolls when they BREATHE. Pretty difficult choice there... I'll go with bandito, wait? Thrills maje more thralls when they kill people? This is a really tough choice...
  • Obviously, this depends on the DM most of the time. Let us suppose that a bandit and an ageless thrall are on equal power level (which they probably aren't), this leaves us to ask which is better to spawn under what conditions.

    The Cartel has the excellent advantage that you can immediately gain quite a large number of them. This is very useful indeed in a burn fight. In addition, they do not require an action to summon, which allows the Bandito to better spend their remaining actions on more important actions, such as taking naps in the bushes, or dealing with that darn snake in their boot.

    However, Ageless Thralls are more sustainable. With a bone summoner commanders at your disposal, you are likely summoning half as many Ageless Thralls each round as the Bandito is able to call on Cartel members in but a single round. In addition, you may be getting even more reinforcements from critical successes and failures. Ageless Thralls seem to be far better for a sustain fight, for sure.

    In addition to all of this, this very much depends on your comrades. If you travel with a Paladin and two Sunclerics, maybe pick the Bandito. But if the Sherif's in town, well there ain't no Bonedancers on his wanted list, is there?
  • Tralls... they are ageless... well that depends is the cartel made out of ageless or not
  • Bonedancer, You are able to Grand Raven's Gift Summon Bone Army. And as someone who rarely gets a crit, I could get about 25 to 35 thralls per Grand Raven's Gift. Plus the buffs from your other skills and treasures just make these thralls endless. While the cartel you can get a large amount at once, but can't keep the cartel running forever
  • edited July 2017
    @Toruk
    Oh my that's a lot of thralls nevermind
  • edited July 2017
    Alright I still stand with the cartel. Because in my opinion, they can be more useful in a lot of situations.

    Bonedancer is a minion class, just like Theurgist (Oh my. Theurgist with Grand Raven's gift and Nourish animation is disguisting)
    So they rely heavily on summon minions to do their work. Bonednacers, are excellent at buffing up their minions.

    But remember, Summon Bone army has a range of 3. So if you are fighting something that wants to fight from really far away, (Something like 10-15 spaces)
    It will take them 2-3 turns to get to their target. Which is a bit. Especially if your enemy has space to run away or has something like Flight. Or, you know, is ageless
     (Since I'm guessing they wouldn't really be affected by it that much. Also, I still say it's debatable if the ageless minions can make others deathroll as they breathe. if the did, then chaosflames would be pretty bad unless you're fighting ageless)

    But with the Cartel, you could be all the way in china, and cast The Cartel. And if you have Grand Finale, you can summon them again to potentially get 20 cartel minions. If we follow the murder bros, then they can also attack from a bit of range (I believe) meaning not only do you not have to be near, not only is it instant damage and targets for your opponent, but it is also something you can position yourself

    If your cartel have a range of 3-5 for each minion, you could position them so that they won't get hit as much from smaller area spells

    The Thralls, they usually attack in packs, and usually in one direction. Cast something like leafstorm you could kill a pack of ageless easily in theory, but with cartel (Saying that they could survive 10 damage) they could be positioned properly where changing the directions mid flight would be hard to kill them all


    But then again, that is my opinion. Of course some people would say Thralls are better than Cartel. It's because they most likely can cause deathrolls (If so, then I guess Chaos Flames is kind of weaker for the class)
  • @Phendrix I think this is a very good addition, I hadn't thought about how important the difference in range is.
    I think, by the sounds of things, we're both pretty solidly in agreement that it really comes down to the specific conditions you expect to be facing in combat, and the way in which you intend to roleplay your group.

    Also, a lot of this depends on how you rule them working. If ageless can only be killed by destroying their skulls, they suddenly get a lot stronger. Alternatively, if Cartel was a spell that your Highbear Companion had ( archduke ) then summoning a Cartel of Highbears would be pretty bullshit. It's such a situational question, it's amazing to see how many people came down hard on the side of Ageless Thralls.

    Super sit-on-the-fence answer, for the win.
  • @TheMadLibrarian
    Wait a minute, I just realized
    A kobold summoning a cartel with 10-20 men, is equal to 100-200 damage a round
    If you some how give them double damage, that's 200-400 damage each round. THat's if they survive

    Yeah, I think the cartel s pretty balanced
  • @Phendrix Yeah, Cartel is pretty crazy, when you play it just right. You might even be able to argue some of the attributes should transfer across to them because they're potentially related to your race, such as deformed or furry which would be pretty huge additions.
  • @TheMadLibrarian
    If the cartel's races did actually matter in the sense that they keep their racial passives, I'd say Kobolds and Dvergrs are the strongest ones
    Kobolds deal the most Cartel damage
    While Dvergrs can take more than 1 hit with their block deathrolls
  • So basically Kobolds are the Cartel DPS, While Dvergrs are the Cartel Tanks
  • edited July 2017
    I feel like as far as gameplay is concerned, everything that is a Minion is the exact same in terms of dealing 5 Damage, rolling a single die for the melee attack, and dying to any single attack. There is nothing that would change this unless it's specified (such as Rage Totem).

    With that being said, the main difference other than numbers and being Limited or Regular is positioning. While the Ageless Minions are summoned within a short range, you can place the Cartel anywhere on the battlefield, giving them an opportunity to attack right away. But Phendrix already mentioned that so yeah
  • @Phendrix Black Boar being a Large Tile actually makes them surprisingly good too. Immunity to status effects and forced movement is a nice little bonus.

    @knguy Oh absolutely. Like I said originally on this subject, this entirely depends on how you interpret the way minions should work. I mostly brought this up because of how many people were obsessed with the idea that Ageless Thralls would be able to force Death Rolls.I wanted to demonstrate that the same logic could make either ability crazy powerful.
  • Bonedancer is honestly a crazy class, but you have to keep in mind that minions only do damage when you roll High using your Regular Action. This isn't really clear anywhere as I really need to get some core rules somewhere. I think minion design and how it works in game could still use some improvements.
  • @Rob That's actually very useful to know! Thanks! If you have a moment to answer a couple of other minion questions (or if you'd just like to know some other commonly asked questions regarding minions, ready for when you do a full write-up of their rules), we'd definitely like some clarification on the following:

    1. Do Ageless Minions have other ageless properties (such as forcing death rolls, and only dying to skull damage)?
    2. Do minions of specific races get the passive bonuses that race would normally provide (ie kobolds always dealing 10 damage base, Black Boars being large tiles, Keens not becoming a large tile ever, etc)?
    3. Do Cartel minions still have ranged weapons, as they did in the show during Season 2?
    4. Do you realise just what an incredibly talented and handsome man you are?

    Guys, flattery is the best way to get your questions answered.
  • If the bandito is ageless, are the members of his cartel ageless as well? If so, would another bonedancer in the party be able to buff them as if they were their own? The possible senergy is crazy!
  • @Jwood54321
    I am pretty sure that Most Bonedancer Buffs work on non ageless as well.
    Also, what I'm wondering is if they would be affected by commandthedead
    Also. Would that work on Ageless Party members?
  • It does say all ageles beings and thralls, so probably. All though, I imagine most GM's would let you or other important characters roll to resist.
  • It depends on the GM but it should work most the time @Phendrix ;
  • @Toruk
    Wow. Then I know what spell I'm getting off of Intelligent if I play in a Paladin Campaign.
    It's the best ageless checking spell. You just use it, and you reveal all Ageless in the area
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